Monday, July 09, 2007

Jesus as Lord and God

According to John 20:28, upon seeing, and hearing words from, the risen Jesus, “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God.’”

The common assumption that the title “God” can only apply to the Creator (whose OT Hebrew name is YHWH) is without biblical support. The words in Hebrew (el and elohim) and Greek (theos) that are translated "God" (and “god” or “gods”) in the Bible are used by the biblical writers not only for the OT YHWH and the NT God and Father of Jesus but also, in an affirmative sense, for Moses (see Exo. 7: 1), the judges of Israel (see Psa. 82: 6 and John 10: 34), and the house of David (see Zech. 12: 8). That is to say, Moses, the judges (as well as the prophets), and the house of David (from which Jesus was descended) were YHWH’s delegated “gods,” chosen to be his spokespersons.

As Jesus explained, regarding why he was not blaspheming by calling himself “the Son of God,” God “called them gods to whom the word of God came” (John 10:35). In other words, when God’s inspired messengers spoke, their hearers heard not their own words but the word of God. They spoke on God's behalf, as God's representatives, to whom God, therefore, delegated the title “gods.”

The delegation of the title “gods” to God’s spokespersons is in keeping with the biblical principle of agency, according to which one’s agent is regarded as oneself. In any case in which one sends a representative to speak on one’s behalf, that representative is to be regarded as an extension of one’s own presence.

Agency is illustrated even today in the case of diplomats, who represent the leaders of their countries in dealings with other countries. Agency, then, is synonymous with mediation. One’s agent is the mediator between oneself and to whomever the agent is sent.

The biblical principle of agency explains a few apparent discrepancies in the NT writings. For example, one NT Gospel testifies that “the mother of the sons of Zebedee” (Matt. 20:20) requested that Jesus grant her sons positions of authority at his future coming with the kingdom of God, whereas another testifies that “James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him” (Mark 10:35) and made the request. Insofar as their mother approached Jesus as their agent/mediator/representative, the discrepancy disappears in that the Jewish mode of expression would have allowed for either telling. Likewise, one NT Gospel testifies that “a centurion came forward to him” (Matt. 8:5), requesting that Jesus heal his servant; another testifies, “When the centurion heard about Jesus, he sent to him elders of the Jews, asking him to come and heal his servant” (Luke 7:3). The Jewish elders served as the centurion’s agent, in which case their words to Jesus were regarded as the words of the centurion himself. In both cases, the principle of agency was so familiar to and accepted by the original hearers and subsequent readers of the stories that either telling was considered truthful.

The same biblical principle of agency, when applied to the sending of God’s messengers to Israel and the nations, makes clear sense of what otherwise would appear to divide the biblical God into multiple persons.

In a negative sense, the Bible is also full of references to the “gods” of the nations (the same Hebrew and Greek words for “God,” no distinction being made in the original language regarding capitalization), gods whom Paul called “demons” (1 Cor. 10: 20-21). Likewise, the prince of demons, Satan, is called “the god [Greek, theos] of this age” (2 Cor. 4: 4). As such, the “other gods” (Exo. 20:3) that the Israelites were prohibited from worshiping by the first of the Ten Commandments were counterfeit agents, misrepresenting God by presenting false revelations of the will of God.

The word “God,” then, is not a name but a title, which the biblical writers applied not only to the Creator but also to his delegated spokespersons (of whom Jesus, as God's Anointed One, was and is the ideal and ultimate agent), as well as to the fallen angels (Greek, angeloi, literally, messengers) who usurped the title by delivering false revelations of God. (The word “president” is comparable in the sense that it can be applied not only to the chief executive of the U.S., in which case it is typically capitalized as “the President,” but also to the heads, or “presidents,” of banks, universities and other organizations.)

When John's Gospel summarizes its message and purpose, it makes clear what claim about Jesus it calls its readers to believe: “. . . these things [that is, his testimony to the miraculous signs performed by Jesus, culminating in God’s resurrection of Jesus from the dead] are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (John 20: 31). When Thomas called Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28), he meant no more nor less than that he now recognized Jesus as “the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31), the one whom God the Father had promised through the prophets and now sent to speak and act on God's behalf, to fulfill God's OT promises and, therefore, to speak God's word in its fullness. Thomas affirmed that Jesus was, and therefore continues to be, God’s ultimate and preeminent agent/mediator/representative, the one who, according to the principle of agency, is to be regarded as God’s self.

The distinction, then, must be made between oneself and one’s agent, who is to be regarded as oneself. Those who regard the agent as the one who sent the agent understand perfectly well that the agent is not literally the same as the sender. Nevertheless, they accord the agent the same treatment as they would accord the sender. (The NT report that Thomas and others “worshiped” Jesus is not, therefore, a persuasive argument that Jesus is, in Trinitarian terms notably absent from the NT writings, a “Person of the Godhead.”)

Responsible for so much confusion is the failure to understand the NT title “Christ” (Greek, christos) as equivalent to the OT title “Messiah” (Hebrew, meshiach). Both “Christ” and “Messiah” mean, in English, Anointed One: the one whom God anointed, or chose or delegated, to rule the kingdom of God as God's agent upon its coming to earth at the end of the present age.

As “the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31), Jesus fulfilled the role of God's preeminent agent prophesied for him in Psalm 2.

In Psa. 2:2, “the LORD” (the capital letters used by English versions of the Bible to signify that the Hebrew term is YHWH, the OT name of the Creator and the God of Israel) is aligned with “his anointed” (Hebrew, meshiach, or Messiah, the equivalent of the NT “Christ”).

In Psa. 2:6, YHWH refers to “his anointed” as “my King,” meaning that the Messiah is, by OT definition, YHWH's anointed King, having been designated as such by YHWH, who is also called "the Lord" (the lower case letters signifying that the Hebrew term is not YHWH but adonai, always an OT title for YHWH).

In Psa. 2:7, the one referred to as YHWH's “anointed . . . King” is now called “my Son” by YHWH, who prophesies the birth of the Messiah: “today I have begotten you.” The “Son of God” is not, according to this definitive Messianic Psalm, the Trinitarian “eternally begotten God the Son” but was “begotten” on a “today” that was, according to this prophetic Psalm, in Israel's future.

Prophetic literature speaks proleptically, which means that it speaks of the future as if it were the present; whatever God has promised can be spoken of as a present reality because God has foreordained it and, thus, it will happen without fail. To speak of what God has promised as if it were a present reality is to confess biblical faith, which is “the reality of things hoped for” (Heb. 11:1).

Since God has promised to send his Messiah, God (and, therefore, God’s people) can speak of it as a present reality: “today I have begotten you.” (This sense of the Messiah's begotteness accords with Luke 1: 35, which says that Jesus “will be called holy—the Son of God,” because his birth to Mary was the result of “the power of the Most High.”)

Psalm 2 aligns Adonai YHWH with "his anointed," whom YHWH also calls “my King” (that is, the one whom YHWH has anointed, or delegated, to be the ruler of his kingdom) and “my Son.” So, the psalmist equates God’s “anointed” with God’s “King” and God’s “Son.” Nowhere, however, does this Psalm, which is definitive for the OT meaning of messiahship, suggest that the Messiah is God in the sense that YHWH is God. The Messiah (YHWH’s “anointed”) is clearly identified as God’s “anointed” agent, the one whom God chose to represent God, to mediate between God and the nations, and to eventually become God's king of all nations.

Therefore, Psalm 2 is completely consistent with the biblical concept that the Messiah is “God” in a delegated sense, that is, in the sense of God's perfect representative, or mediator, the one who exercises the authority of God on earth (which is a continual theme of John's Gospel).

Finally, the OT text most quoted by the NT writers, Psa. 110:1, is altogether consistent with this analysis: “The LORD [Hebrew, YHWH] says to my Lord [Hebrew, adoni, an OT term which refers to human dignitaries, as opposed to adonai, the OT title for YHWH]: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’”

In this prophetic text (fulfilled, according to the NT writers, in Jesus), YHWH exalts this human “Lord” (adoni) to his “right hand,” and promises to bring all this Lord's enemies into submission to him. If the Psalmist had intended to equate the lordship of YHWH with the lordship of the Messiah (assuming the wish to convey the Trinitarian concept of two Persons interacting within the same Being), he presumably would have used adonai, always an OT title for YHWH, rather than adoni, an OT title for human lords, such as kings and other dignitaries. Instead, the biblical writers clearly distinguish between the Lord (adonai) God, whose OT name is YHWH, and the Lord (adoni) Messiah, whose NT name is Jesus.

Psalm 110:1, then, refers to two Lords, one’s lordship being delegated to him by the other, whose supreme lordship is integral to his being. This is precisely the meaning of the words of the risen Jesus to his apostles: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me” (Matt. 28:18), which is the fulfillment of the promise prophesied in Psalm 110:1.

Accordingly, the NT writers use Psalm 110:1 to identify Jesus as "Lord" and "God" in the delegated sense of God's anointed spokesperson, the one who speaks and acts on God's behalf, as God's representative, or agent, “the one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). Every NT reference to Jesus as “mediator” assumes the biblical principle of agency, according to which one’s agent is regarded as oneself.

What human beings can know, and what believers in the NT gospel of God’s kingdom and grace do know, about the one true God is mediated through Jesus, who has been delegated the titles “Lord” and “God” by his God and Father.

A Christian can, with Thomas, confess Jesus as “my Lord and my God.” The question is whether or not the Christian making this confession means what Thomas meant.


At 7/12/2007 3:34 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The real questions are: "How did Thomas's life change after making that confession?" and "Did Thomas act differently after he finally realized who Jesus was, therefore confessing Jesus as his "lord and god"?

At 7/12/2007 9:46 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not clear as to why these are "the real questions." Is what Thomas meant by calling Jesus "my Lord and my God" not a "real" question for Christian faith? After all, people's lives change when they join religious cults, which lead them to submit their lives to authoritarian leaders who impose systems of mind control and behavior modification on them. The kind of "life change" produced by God, according to the NT writers, is the result of believing the NT gospel. This would seem to relate directly to what Thomas meant when he called Jesus "my Lord and my God."


At 7/17/2007 6:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for this. Someone was just asking me about this text the other day. I'll direct them to your article.
I also agree with you about the previous point. As your article shows, John's intention behind presenting Thomas' statement is made explicit a few verses later - to convince the reader that Jesus is the Son of God. I think, therefore, that this should constitue the 'real question'.

At 8/03/2007 8:48 PM, Blogger PatrickNavas said...


Thank you for the excellent discussion on John 20:28. Interestingly enough, a JW friend recently wrote to me about this text as well. I'm going to paste your discussion in an email to him.
Also, if you don't mind, I'd like to post it on my webpage as well.

Keep up the good work,

Patrick Navas

P.S. Here is an excellent quote from Marianne Thompson's book The God of the Gospel of John. Thompson is a professor of NT interpretation at Fuller Seminary

"In light of the rest of the Gospel of John, Thomas’s confession cannot mean that the risen Jesus is the only God. That epithet has already been used by Jesus himself in a context that clearly distinguishes the Father and the Son (17:3). Moreover, in a resurrection appearance to Mary Magdalene, Jesus had commanded her to go tell his disciples that he was ‘ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and to your God’ (20:17). It is highly unlikely that John intends the reader to understand that at some point the Father and Son are simply ‘collapsed’ into one, or that the one identified by Jesus as ‘my God’ somehow has become the risen Lord himself." --The God of the Gospel of John, p. 235

At 8/03/2007 8:50 PM, Blogger PatrickNavas said...

Thompson also points out (p. 55):

“When, in the climactic confession of the Gospel, Thomas addresses the risen Jesus as ‘My Lord and my God!’ this formulation stands as the summary and elaboration of the work and person of Jesus through the Gospel. The direct confession of the risen Lord as God stands alongside and interprets, but does not eclipse, the narrative that points to his dependence upon and authorization by the Father.”

At 8/03/2007 9:08 PM, Blogger Robert said...


Thanks for the quotations from Prof. Thompson's book. Feel free to use anything that appears on this blog as you see fit.

At 8/04/2007 3:55 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


I like how you have reasoned in this posting.

What would be your choice as the book that most completely, comprehensively and exegetically delineates the Scriptural truth about the relationship between God, the Word and the Messiah?


At 8/09/2007 11:15 PM, Blogger Robert said...


A booklet that I found helpful is titled, Who Is Jesus? A Plea for a Return to Belief in Jesus the Messiah, by Anthony Buzzard, and can be obtained for a few dollars at I wrote a book several years ago, titled Possession and Persuasion: The Rhetoric of Christian Faith (available from, which directly addresses the relationship between God, the Messiah, and the word. A few other books that contribute to what I think is a more biblical understanding of this question are They Never Told Me This in Church, by Greg S. Deuble, and Divine Truth or Human Tradition, by Patrick Navas.

At 9/10/2007 3:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Nevertheless, they accord the agent the same treatment as they would accord the sender. (The NT report that Thomas and others “worshiped” Jesus is not, therefore, a persuasive argument that Jesus is, in Trinitarian terms notably absent from the NT writings, a “Person of the Godhead.”)

The question is, then, where in Scripture does it confirm why we are able to worship one of God's agents - Jesus, but not another one of God's agents - angels (Rev 22:8-9)?

At 9/16/2007 9:53 PM, Blogger Robert Hach said...


That worship is rendered not only to God but to God's human agents is shown by 1 Chronicles 29:20, "And all the assembly blessed [YHWH], the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and paid homage to [YHWH] and to the king [in this case, King David]." The term rendered "paid homage to" is the Hebrew word usually rendered "worshiped."

This raises the question of why the angel refused worship in Revelation 22:8-9, as well as why Peter refused worship in Acts 10:25-26). My belief is that after the resurrection and exaltation of God's Messiah, who is the preeminent human agent of God, worship of other human and angelic agents was (and is) no longer appropriate, as it was in OT times.

Whether or not my inference is correct, it is a biblical fact that worship, which simply means paying homage, was rendered to both God and those who spoke God's word up to and including God's Messiah, who was and is God's preeminent spokesperson/agent.

At 12/16/2007 1:08 AM, Blogger JohnOneOne said...

With respect to Thomas' statement at John 20:28, the following might be of interest to some:

"These words, My Lord and my God, may have this import: “My Lord and my God have done this;” and so they exactly agree with the faith of the apostles, saying, “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, and hanged on a tree.” …Or thus: “My Lord and my God! how great is thy power!” for, saith St. Paul, “God exerted the greatness of his power, and the activity of his might, in raising our Lord Jesus from the dead,” Eph[esians] i [1]. 19, 20."

Taken from: Whitby, Daniel (b.1638-d.1726), D.D. "Hysterai Phrontides, or, The Last Thoughts of Dr. Whitby: Containing His Correction of Several Passages in his Commentary on the New Testament: To Which are Added, Five Discourses…" (London, England: Printed for James and John Knapton, 1727), pp. 93, 94. OCLC: 14108182.


"Their division [that is, the division of Thomas’s words into two exclamations, – “My Lord! and, My God!”] is perfectly natural, because they correspond with the emotions which would, in the most rapid succession, be excited towards different objects, in the apostle’s mind. By the first, he recognises the identity of Christ; and, in the second, he reverences the power of God, who had raised him from the dead. Were you, sir, visited by some friend, whom you had seen committed to the tomb, your feelings would, I think, on receiving a similar proof of his identity, flow in the same course, and with the same rapidity. In the first moment of astonished conviction, you would call him by his name: your immediately succeeding feeling would be an adoring gratitude towards the almighty Author of the change."

Taken from: Fox, W. J. (b.1786-d.1864). "The Apostle John an Unitarian: A Letter to the Rev. C[harles] J[ames] Blomfield [b.1786-d.1857], Rector of St. Botoph’s, Bishopsgate, and Archdeacon of Colchester: Occasioned by his “Five Lectures on the Gospel of St. John, As Bearing Testimony to the Divinity of Our Saviour.”" (London, England: C. Fox and Co., 1823), p. 15. OCLC: 30146064.


"Thomas addressed these words to Jesus, and therein declared him to be at once his Lord and the Messiah; for it is expressly stated, “He said to him.” From this address of Thomas, however, many commentators are of opinion, that the doctrine of Christ’s divine nature may be established, and conceive that the sentence, when filled up, would be thus: “I am not faithless; I doubt no longer; thou are my Lord and my God.” But, on the contrary, others justly observe, that Thomas used the term God in the sense in which it is applied to kings and judges, who were considered as representatives of Deity, and pre-eminently to the Messiah; see Ps[alm] lxxxii [82]. 6, 7; xlv [45]. 6, 7; cx [90]. 1; John x [10]. 35. Some adopt the opinion of Theodore of Mopsuesta [], regarding the words as merely an exclamation of surprise, and referring them, not to Christ, but to God."

Taken from: Kühnöl, Christian Gottlieb (b.1768-d.1841), Professor of Theology at Giessen. "Commentarius in Libros Novi Testament Historicos." 3 vols. (London, England: J. Booker, 1835). OCLC: 10303157.


"The answer of Jesus himself excludes the supposition that he was addressed as the Supreme God. For he said unto his disciple, “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed.” Now this must mean, “Because thou hast seen me here alive, after my crucifixion and burial, thou hast believed that I am raised from the dead; and it is well; but blessed are they who cannot have such evidence of the senses, and yet shall believe in the glorious truth, from your evidence, and that of you’re your brethren.” He could not have meant, that they were blessed who, though they had not seen him, yet had believed that he was God; because there is no connection between the propositions; because the fact of the resurrection of Jesus cannot, to the mind of any one, be of itself a proof of his deity; and because no one thinks of requiring to see God, in order to believe that he exists."

Taken from: Greenwood, Francis William Pitt (b.1797-d.1843). "Lives of the Twelve Apostles: To Which is Prefixed a Life of John the Baptist." 2nd Edition. (Boston, Massachusetts: Hilliard, Gray & Co., 1835), p. 139. BS2440 .G7 1835 / 39008934.


"It may be justly doubted whether the so lately incredulous, because prejudiced and unenlightened, disciple had then, or at any time before the illumination of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, any complete notion of the divine nature of Jesus, as forming part of the Godhead;…"

Taken from: Bloomfield, Samuel Thomas (, D.D., F.S.A., Vicar of Bisbrooke, in Rutland. "Reconsio Synoprica Annotationis Sacræ, Being a Critical Digest and Synoptical Arrangement of the Most Important Annotations on the New Testament…" 8 vols. (London, England: 1826-1828). BS2341 .B6 / unk83060391.


"Thomas declared that the person whom he beheld was no visionary appearance, but Jesus himself; and professed his most full persuasion, that Jesus had returned from the state of death and lived again, and was truly Lord and God. But it may indeed be doubted whether, at that time, Thomas had a full conception of Jesus Christ as Lord and God; since either disciples received it afterwards by the communication of the Holy Spirit."

As stated by Bible scholar, J. Tittman, quoted within: Smith, John Pye (b.1774-d.1851), D.D., F.G.S, F.R.S., Divinity Tutor in the Dissenting College at Homerton. "Scripture Testimony to the Messiah: An Inquiry with a View to a Satisfactory Determination of the Doctrine Taught in the Holy Scriptures Concerning the Person of Christ." 3rd Edition. 3 vols. (London, England: Jackson and Walford,…[et al.], 1837). OCLC: 3373919.


"In light of the rest of the Gospel of John, Thomas’s confession cannot mean that the risen Jesus is the only God. That epithet has already been used by Jesus himself in a context that clearly distinguishes the Father and the Son ([John] 17:3). Moreover, in a resurrection appearance to Mary Magdalene, Jesus had commanded her to go tell his disciples that he was “ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and to your God” ([John] 20:17). It is highly unlikely that John intends the reader to understand that at some point the Father and Son are simply “collapsed” into one, or that the one identified by Jesus as “my God” somehow has become the risen Lord himself."

Taken from: Thompson, Marianne Meye (b.?-d.?), Professor of New Testament Interpretation, Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California. "The God of the Gospel of John." (Grand Rapids, Michigan: W.B. Eerdmans, c2001), p. 235. BT102 .T525 2001 / 2001-040379.


"When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John [John 1:1-18] which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine [of 325c.e.], must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the Greek word for “God/god” at John 1:1c without the definite article] than it appears in English….The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (John xx [20]. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene ([John 20:] v[erse] 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification."

Taken from: Creed, John Martin (b.1889-d.1940). "The Divinity of Jesus Christ; A Study in the History of Christian Doctrine Since Kant." (Cambridge, England: University Press, 1938), pp. 122-123. BT198 .B7 / 39-000631.


"It is evident from [John 20] ver[se] 25, that Thomas doubted Christ’s resurrection, without any reference to his Deity; and that, when he saw Jesus and the print of the nails, he believed it, and, being struck with such a circumstance, made the exclamation, “My Lord and my God!” according to the invariable habits of the Jews, Arabs, and almost all other Asiatic nations, who, when struck with wonder, often make exclamations in the name of the Deity."

Taken from: Roy, Rammohun, Raja (b.1772?-d.1833). "Final Appeal to the Christian Public, in Defence of the “Precepts of Jesus.”" (Calcutta, India: Printed at the Unitarian Press, Dhurmtollah, 1823), chapter iv [4], p. 594. 1828 Edition: (Boston, Massachusetts: Christian Register Office, 1828). OCLC: 4755393.


"This has generally been considered an exclamation, and the words seem to admit it; but to me the sense appears to be, “Yes! he is truly my Lord and my God.” The exclamation is a recognition of Jesus. I will not go so far as to conclude from these words, that he actually recognised, at the time, the divine nature of Christ, of which we have no trace amongst the apostles, previous to the effusion of the Holy Ghost; at least it was not the common doctrine of the Jewish theology. But he rather names him in a figurative sense – as one risen from the dead – his god, whom he will always honour and adore in the same way: as Virgil, in his first Eclogue, only still stronger, addresses Augustus: “For he shall always be my god: the tender lamb from our folds shall often stain his altar.”"

Taken from Trinitarian scholar: Michaelis, Johann David (b.?-d.?). "The Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ: According to the Four Evangelists." (London, England: J. Hatchard and Son, 1827), pp. 272, 273. BT480 .M6 / unk81020515. OCLC: 2489958 & 59216269.


Therefore, contrary to common view that Thomas' statement is undeniable proof that Jesus is God, the above gives testimony to the fact that not all (including Trinitarians) have viewed these words as proof of that teaching.

Agape, Alan.

At 1/23/2008 10:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A question that always needs to be asked when written or spoken communication is invovled, is this - are the words presented literal or in some way figurative. Both methods are just as true when the intent of the communication is know, and in the effort of the interpretation, the rightly dividing of the scripture is concerned, the interpretation must not do damage or contradict the clearer or obvious parts of scripture. The say that Thomas' statement means the Jesus is Lord and God, literally, does this sort of damage and that literal interpreataion needs to be rejected as unreasonable. Too many clear passages that say the opposite. Also, this sentence structure could be the use of the figure hendiadys, or "two for one", as EW Bullinger so wonderfully explains in his epic work "Figures of Speach in the Bible". "My Lord and my God" could be rendered "My godly Lord" using this particular figure. The wounds that Jesus showed to Thomas were the indication of his suffering and death, two experinces that were not possible for an all powerful and holy God. Jesus submitted himself to both, something that made him like us and not like his Father, and Our Father!

At 5/22/2008 5:05 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is this trying to advocated a Unitarian position? Because this is taking one single passage and pulling it apart, whilst neglecting other parts? (Of course the rest of the blog might deal with these issues, I will have to see.) But how could Jesus say "he who has seen me has seen the Father?" or "even before Abraham was, I am? ('I am' being signifying of YHWH?) And when Jesus healed the paralytic, he forgave his sins, and the Pharisees asked "who but God can forgive sins?" Who indeed? In response to the rich young man, Jesus asked "Why do you call me good? No-one is good but God."Isit because he is just a man- or is he pointing to smething else? And John says "all things were made through him" when he refers to the personified word of God- obviously Jesus.

Of course, the term 'god' can mean many things- but not necessarily to YHWH, the Creator and Almighty One.
I think Jesus fits this category.

At 5/25/2008 8:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don’t think it’s quite fair to say that my article “is taking one single passage and pulling it apart, whilst neglecting other parts.” After all, I referenced and quoted the following OT and NT texts to support my interpretation of John 20:28: Exo. 7:1; Psalms 2 and 82:6 and 110:1; Zech. 12:8; Matt. 28:18; John 10:34-35; 20:31; and 1 Tim. 2:5.

In regard to how Jesus could say, “he who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9) the NT claim that Jesus, as God’s Anointed One, is the perfect representative of the Father means that all of Jesus’ works and words reflected the true image of God: “he who has seen me has seen the Father.”

If, on the other hand, you interpret “he who has seen me has seen the Father” to mean that Jesus IS God, then you must interpret “he who has seen me has seen the Father” to mean that Jesus IS the Father. But even Trinitarianism doesn’t hold that Jesus IS the Father but, instead, that the Son and the Father are two distinct Persons of the Godhead. Hopefully, you can see that this Trinitarian doctrine is not the same as Jesus’ saying “he who has seen me has seen the Father.”

Regarding “even before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58), the same Greek words rendered “I am” are more correctly translated in John 4:26 and 8:24 and 8:28 as “I am he,” meaning “I am Messiah” as John 4:25-26 makes clear. So, John 8:58 testifies to Jesus’ being God’s Messiah “before Abraham was” in the sense that God foreknew and foreordained Jesus’ Messiahship from “the beginning” (John 1:1a), meaning that “the word” that was in God’s mind (“with God,” John 1:1b) and that revealed God (“was God,” John 1:1c) was the “the word” about Jesus as God’s coming Messiah.

The only reason that the “I am” in John 8:58 has been equated with the “I am” of Exodus is due to the Trinitarian presuppositions that post-apostolic theologians and the readers that follow their lead read into John 8:58.

Concerning “who but God can forgive sins?” Jesus’ authority to forgive sins was delegated to him by God himself. Therefore, God was forgiving sins through the word of his Son. This is the meaning of Jesus’ claim that “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).
With reference to “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God,” Jesus’ words can be understood to mean that by calling him “good,” the rich young man was acknowledging that Jesus spoke for God, as God’s agent, and therefore with God’s authority. Or Jesus’ words can be understood as a rebuke to the rich young man for calling Jesus’ “good” when only God can rightfully be called “good.” I favor the first interpretation, but the point is that interpreting Jesus’ words to mean that Jesus is God is only one possible (and the least probable) interpretation.

Finally, “all things were made through him” (John 1:3) can also be rendered “all things were made through it,” meaning through “the word” (John 1:1). Whether the pronoun is rendered “him” or “it” depends on the context, which means that it depends on whether you interpret “the word” to be a “him” or an “it.” If “the word” of John 1:1-18 refers not to a preexistent Word/Person but to God’s revelation of his purpose for the creation in Christ, as it does in every other NT text, then “all things were made through it [= the word]” echoes Genesis 1, which says that God spoke creation into existence.

Before rejecting these alternative interpretations of familiar NT texts, I encourage you to read back over the article and consider that mediation and agency are synonymous terms. If Jesus is the “one mediator between God and man” (1 Tim. 2:5), that means that he cannot be God but must be “the man Christ Jesus,” who as God’s perfect human agent is to be regarded and treated by believers as if he were God.

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At 4/08/2009 7:57 PM, Blogger M. R. Burgos said...

"Thomas affirmed that Jesus was, and therefore continues to be, God’s ultimate and preeminent agent/mediator/representative, the one who, according to the principle of agency, is to be regarded as God’s self."

This has to be one of the greatest cases of isogesis that I have ever read. Tell me, what do you do in your spare time, write science fiction?

At 4/09/2009 2:48 PM, Anonymous Robert said...

I haven't tried my hand at science fiction yet. As far is isogesis is concerned, perhaps you would like to point out a text that you think I read my own meaning into and explain why you think so. Otherwise, your comment comes off like a hit-and-run tactic. Presumably, informed Trinitarians are capable of better.

At 4/10/2009 9:45 AM, Blogger M. R. Burgos said...

The text I spoke of was John 20:28. Your attempt at explaining away Thomas' response to the resurrected Christ as agency has got to be one of the most outlandish I have seen. I would suggest you let the context do the talking and leave the interpretation to the scripture itself. I commend to you John 20:31. The Son is co-equal, this is an undeniable truth.

At 4/10/2009 1:43 PM, Anonymous Robert said...

The reason that you are unfamiliar with use of the Hebrew concept of agency as the biblical paradigm for understanding John 20:28 (among so many other texts regarding Jesus' Messiahship) is that Trinitarian Christianity, since its usurpation of the Christian tradition at the Councils of Nicea and Chalcedon, has so dogmatically repressed it, along with ruthlessly repressing non-Trinitarian Christians.

My interpretation of John 20:28 is fully consistent with John 20:31,
"that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God." Both "Christ," (i.e., Messiah) and "Son of God" are OT titles (see especially Psalm 2), which clearly refer to God's chosen King of Israel, about which there is no indication that he is anything other than human.

Jesus himself clearly expressed the principle of agency in John
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So, if God called his chosen OT messengers ("to whom the word of God came") "gods," because by speaking "the word of God" they represented God as his human agents, why would it not be appropriate for Thomas to call Jesus "my Lord and my God," upon recognizing him as God's Messiah ("the Son of God," i.e., God's preeminent human agent).

Are you rejecting this as akin to "science fiction" because it is not an arguably biblical alternative to the orthodox doctrine? Or are you rejecting it because your Trinitarian conditioning has closed your mind to the possibility of any alternative whatsoever?

If the former, you can presumably show OT precedents for understanding "Messiah" and "Son of God" as titles for an "incarnation" of God himself, and you can explain why Jesus' use of agency to explain his claim to be "the Son of God" in John 10:34-36 doesn't apply to John 20:28 and John 20:31.

If the latter, the ecclesiastical hierarchy has done its job.


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I think you may have missed the meaning behind Psalm 2:7: "Today I have begotten You." If I understood you correctly, you think that this refers to Jesus' birth. However, the New Testament never quotes this verse in this manner, but attributes it to His exultation and resurrection. "That God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'You are My Son; Today I have begotten You" (Acts 13:33).

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It may not be as clear as you think it is that Psalm 2:7 refers to the resurrection of Jesus.

In Acts 13:33 quotes Psalm 2:7 with reference to God's having "raised up" Jesus. Then Acts 13:34 quotes Isaiah 55:3 and Psalm 16:10 with reference to God's having (literally) "raised up him out of the dead," as if this raising up was subsequent to the raising up of 13:33. This is indicated by 13:34's beginning with the conjunction "And."

The phrase "raised up" can refer to God's having brought Jesus into the world to be his anointed king, which Jesus was destined to be not only from his birth but from "the beginning" (John 1:1). I wouldn't be dogmatic about it, but some credible NT scholars (notably F.F. Bruce) interpret Acts 13:33, and therefore Psalm 2:7, with reference to Jesus' birth.

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İstanbul da yılbaşı denildiği zaman tartışmasız herkesin aklına İstanbul eğlence mekanları gelmektedir. İstanbul Yılbaşı Rehberi Ailesi olarak, bütün okuyucularımız için yeni yılın sağlık, huzur, mutluluk getirmesini diliyoruz.

Yeni yıl yaklaşırken, İstanbul Yılbaşı Rehberi ailesi olarak değerli okurlarımızı düşünüp onlar için İstanbul’daki birbirinden güzel, eğlenceli yılbaşı mekanlarını araştırdık ve sıraladık.

İstanbul Yılbaşı Rehberi ailesi olarak bütçenize en uygun, en eğlenceli, en güzel mekanı seçmeniz için biz buradayız… Alternatif seçenekler ile bu yılbaşı nereye gideceğinize karar vermeniz biraz zor olacak gibi gözüküyor.

31 Aralığın diğer günlerden hiç bir farkı yok gibi gözükse de kimileri için çok büyük farkı vardır. Bir yılın bitmesi yeni bir yıla girilecek olması başlı başına büyük bir farktır aslında. Yılı kötü geçenler için yeni yılın güzel geçmesi için dilenen dilekleri içerirken bazıları için de uzun, güzel, sağlıklı yıllar geçmesi için dilenen dilekleri içerir bu gece…

At 8/15/2018 8:20 AM, Anonymous istanbul_yılbaşı_programları said...

Geçen sene yapamadığınız aklınızda kalan her şeyin bu sene gerçekleşmesini bin bir bahane bulup da bir türlü başlayamadığınız işlerin biran önce bitmesini temenni ediyoruz.

Yeni yıl bazen umut dolu olur bazen de neşe dolu olur… Yeni yıl aslında bir defteri kapatıp yeni bir deftere başlangıç yaptığımız gündür.

Yeni yıla nasıl girersen yılın öyle geçer derler hep peki ya siz Yeni yıla nasıl gireceğinize karar vermek için ne bekliyorsunuz? İstanbul yılbaşı mekanları ailesi olarak saat 12:00’a kadar çılgınca eğlenip sevdiklerinizle birlikte yeni yıla girebileceğiniz, gülmekten karnınıza ağrı gireceği bin bir çeşit güzel mekan ile karşınızdayız.

Yeni yıla girerken bütün neşeniz, mutluluğunuz ve sevdikleriniz ile beraber olmanız dileğimizle…

Yeni yılın size şans, huzur, mutluluk getirmesi dileğimizle…

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